tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27054305.post3171855890465268628..comments2023-12-23T04:56:29.702-05:00Comments on Ferule & Fescue: The perils of being female in publicFlaviahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17832765671541392835noreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27054305.post-47960029442957421872008-08-21T09:21:00.000-04:002008-08-21T09:21:00.000-04:00I had a scarily similar incident on public transpo...I had a scarily similar incident on public transport yesterday that made me think of this post (and followup comments). I was riding home with a bag of books I had just checked out, and I got out one to start reading. The guy sitting next to me took off his headphones (to which he had previously been bopping rather enthusiastically) and asked me what I was reading. Stuart Clark's book on the history of vision in early modern Europe, I told him. He looked blankly at me, then told me he had just started reading two months ago (I'm guessing, since kindergarten, not from scratch) and it was worrying all his friends, and then stated very impressively that he had gotten through almost 300 pages in two months. I "mmm"ed encouragingly and bent back over my book, and read about epistemological crises to the soundtrack of how Ayn Rand had changed his life. <BR/><BR/>I finally started assigning him reading to accompany his analysis of Rand, and that drove him away quickly. This has been my main -- and usually successful -- strategy of getting rid of random walkups (telling them to read before they tried to talk to me again), though it did backfire once when one guy worked through a whole list I had given him and came back wanting to discuss ...Liza Blakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05105726464955172469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27054305.post-30808374881017899662008-08-08T18:16:00.000-04:002008-08-08T18:16:00.000-04:00Flavia: Thanks! What's my prize? A spray can of an...Flavia: Thanks! What's my prize? A spray can of anti-creepy-dude repellent? <BR/><BR/>Actually, out of the two anecdotes I described above, the second was by far the worse situation. It's one thing when a creepy dude follows you around when you don't have any sort of relationship or reason to behave nicely to the creepy dude. But the owner of my favourite used book store? Where I got discounts regularly? Where I sold the few books I was willing to let go of? Where one of his employees would give me money to go buy Coke, and we'd sit behind the register mixing it with the rum hidden under the counter, and he'd smoke and tell me about Russian philosophers I'd never heard of? <BR/><BR/>Damn straight I had to read that manuscript.ihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14105686105741162480noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27054305.post-66190071341682118832008-08-08T12:46:00.000-04:002008-08-08T12:46:00.000-04:00Here's my anecdote: after three dates with a sligh...Here's my anecdote: after three dates with a slightly mad musician, I decided to cut it off. <BR/><BR/>Musician had been quite impressed by the fact that I was "into" poetry, as he put it. But had no curiosity about what that actually entailed. And when I told him I didn't want to see him anymore, he sent me free verse, Deep Image nature poetry about his anguish that I wouldn't have sex with him. Via text message.the rebel lettristehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08369013300190217105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27054305.post-46867702284028758562008-08-08T11:50:00.000-04:002008-08-08T11:50:00.000-04:00My daughters (twentyish) and spouse refer to this ...My daughters (twentyish) and spouse refer to this as the "breathing while female" condition - male incidence of same is < 0.0001%.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27054305.post-76131078141185193692008-08-05T10:36:00.000-04:002008-08-05T10:36:00.000-04:00Irina: you win!Actually, yes--I'd forgotten about ...Irina: you win!<BR/><BR/>Actually, yes--I'd forgotten about this variation. I've never been stalked, and I don't think I've ever had someone actually show me his writing, but a certain number of random dudes have indeed professed a <I>desire</I> for me to give them my (ahem) serious opinion about their poetry, novel, or--in one deeply icky instance--"erotic fiction."<BR/><BR/>I'm not sure how much of a variation this is, though--the guy is still convinced that he's a genius, and under no circumstances does he want your <I>actual</I> opinion; he's just found someone he considers to have some minimal taste/qualifications to appreciate his particular brand of genius. <BR/><BR/>(Sheepish, if you're reading: I've suddenly remembered the story from maybe 3-4 years ago about the very old, very persistent guy who wanted the two of you to become the next--which comedic duo was it?)Flaviahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17832765671541392835noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27054305.post-4679964958864019092008-08-05T03:54:00.000-04:002008-08-05T03:54:00.000-04:00I want to offer my own variation on this pattern, ...I want to offer my own variation on this pattern, which is, I humbly suggest, almost nastier. It's the "Young lady, I'm going to pretend to take you and your expertise <I>seriously</I>, because that way I will have one more person I can coerce into reading my incoherent manuscript."<BR/><BR/>The worst case of this took place when I worked in a rare books library, and a creepy old man who -- I am not making this up -- actually had saliva dripping from his moustache, upon confirming that yes, I did like Shakespeare (Oh! Will! What has not been done in your name!), suggested that he would show me his MS of a series of free verse poems he had written dealing with all of Shakespeare's works. I sort of politely smiled and nodded, not really believing that he would come back another day and bring me the MS (which, it needs to be said, he was also paranoid about me showing to other people or, god forbid, publishing in my own name). He would subsequently come into the library regularly to check up on me and whether I had written any comments for him on his MS, forcing me to hide in the stacks while the grad students who worked their lied and said I wasn't at work that day.<BR/><BR/>Somehow, around that period in my life (closer to 20 than to 30), this happened a lot. The owner of my favourite bookstore, with whom I was casually friendly, asked me to read his memoir-in-progress. There were other incidents. I think the combination of being twenty, female and an English major was an irresistible combination for any wacko with literary pretensions.ihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14105686105741162480noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27054305.post-5528797983130116262008-08-04T23:24:00.000-04:002008-08-04T23:24:00.000-04:00Well, I'm a male reader, and I'll admit that other...Well, I'm a male reader, and I'll admit that other men have just begun rattling at me. But it's happened twice in my adult life, as a real oddity both times, and there was nothing like the condescension that the pest showed Flavia.<BR/><BR/>On the other hand, I used to know a graduate student whose standard approach to meeting women was almost exactly like what Flavia has described. He would just approach attractive women and start lecturing them about his pet theory. This always seemed like ineffectual courtship behavior, and some of the women didn't even read it as courtship behavior. Except that he never, ever did it to men.<BR/><BR/>Even if Flavia's pest has some kind of autism-spectrum disorder, which would explain his inability to read social signals or follow appropriate norms, it's still a likely bet that he expresses his cognitive quirks differently to women than he does to men. Because even he can read *those* unwritten rules.<BR/><BR/>On the other hand, dysfunctional women intent on violating some man's boundaries, even when they're very dysfunctional indeed, almost do it indirectly. Throw in the misogynist stereotype of your choice (passive-aggressive, guileful, manipulative) but they add up to the same thing: even women behaving extremely inappropriately have look for ways to *subvert* men's boundaries rather than simply ignore them. Even the crazies are forced to give that much deference to male social privilege, and that deference itself constitutes privilege in daily life. It is far, far easier for straight men to fend off even fairly determined nutters than it is for women to get shut of garden-variety boors. I've certainly never had to change my coffee shop, let alone my congregation, even when dealing with people who desperately needed medication.Doctor Clevelandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07326408523926507003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27054305.post-54742061056731550672008-08-04T14:02:00.000-04:002008-08-04T14:02:00.000-04:00I don't think headphones are that great of a deter...I don't think headphones are that great of a deterrent. I normally study with mine on to drown out background noise and am still interrupted by these sorts of men - who will continue to talk even once I have put my headphones back on!<BR/><BR/>If I try to ignore the ones who are 'regulars' at certain places I'm labeled as rude or a bitch so I've had to change my whole life around sometimes to avoid these sorts of people, going to a different coffee shop, avoiding certain parts of the library even changing my church!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04365961774702855536noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27054305.post-85464152572730378462008-08-04T11:03:00.000-04:002008-08-04T11:03:00.000-04:00Heya Sheepish! You know, I was thinking of you as ...Heya Sheepish! You know, I was thinking of you as I wrote this post, as I <I>do</I> remember at least a few of your stories. And though I suspect you may radiate niceness (not to mention great beauty) more than some of us, and so attract more than your share of socially aggressive weirdos convinced of their own, necessary charms--well, it's nothing any of us is <I>doing</I> other than being female. 'Sfar as I can tell.Flaviahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17832765671541392835noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27054305.post-68643951087318397932008-08-04T10:48:00.000-04:002008-08-04T10:48:00.000-04:00I'm sure I've told you some of my stories from yea...I'm sure I've told you some of my stories from years of living in NYC, Flavia. I even catch this type of crap when I go out swing dancing, which seems like such an innocuous, wholesome activity that doesn't even involve that much conversation... but I'm sure ballroom dancing, where men typically lead, attracts even more of this type of guy. <BR/>And, this kind of thing ALWAYS happens when I am alone, less often when I am with another woman, and never when I am with a man. Sometimes, I have to resort to feigning complete feral insanity to get someone off my back... and I actually kind of relish the chance to depart from being the "good girl" to someone who might bite the heads off bats.<BR/>Of the many times I have shared these stories with guy friends, boyfriends, etc., I can't recall one instance where a man shared a similar tale.Addyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14771258096673338939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27054305.post-83307449188011375762008-08-03T22:24:00.000-04:002008-08-03T22:24:00.000-04:00Hi G, and thanks for your input. I'd like to hear ...Hi G, and thanks for your input. I'd like to hear more from more of my male readers, since this is obviously anecdotal and impressionistic--but it strikes me that men are interrupted or approached much less often than women <I>when there's no reasonable excuse</I> for it. <BR/><BR/>That is, total nutjobs bug people of both genders. And I've certainly seen men approach other men (or women approach men) with a specific, resonable motive--to comment on the awesomeness of the book the other guy is reading, or exclaim over his iPhone, or whatever. But the random striking up of conversation with someone who shows no sign of being available for or interested in conversation seems to be a male-to-female phenomenon. I'm guessing that even semi-inappropriate dudes have more trepidation about encroaching on other dudes' privacy than they do on women's.<BR/><BR/>But again: that's just my impression. Anyone else want to weigh in?Flaviahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17832765671541392835noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27054305.post-72832999669334969182008-08-03T22:00:00.000-04:002008-08-03T22:00:00.000-04:00I'm still thinking about this.I was about to say, ...I'm still thinking about this.<BR/><BR/>I was about to say, "Why is this a gender issue? Isn't everyone 'expected' to be polite?". But rereading your post I see you didn't explicitly say that. I realized that your and your commenters' saying that women are expected to be polite doesn't imply that guys aren't, too...<BR/><BR/>Anyhow, I'll raise my hand and offer that guys are bugged by coffee shop weirdos of both genders now and then, too. Fortunately, less frequently, but it's non-zero.<BR/><BR/>Ducking from the tomatoes,<BR/>gG-Favhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14474787912488750916noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27054305.post-5814115922511717812008-08-03T20:34:00.000-04:002008-08-03T20:34:00.000-04:00Flavia:I know RU and its strange little city, and ...Flavia:<BR/><BR/>I know RU and its strange little city, and it's far superior to many other RUs and their cities.<BR/><BR/>At least your graybeard offers something to accompany his hoariness and odour.<BR/><BR/>Isn't it sad when this is all the action a girl can get?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27054305.post-37481597860499408172008-08-03T19:57:00.000-04:002008-08-03T19:57:00.000-04:00You know, Flavia, I was thinking of that essay too...You know, Flavia, I was thinking of that essay too, and went googling for it right after I was done posting. It is fabulous. Thanks for the link.<BR/><BR/>The Koontz story is also priceless. A perfect example.Doctor Clevelandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07326408523926507003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27054305.post-20862362469480299372008-08-03T19:36:00.000-04:002008-08-03T19:36:00.000-04:00Try wearing headphones or earbuds, even if they're...Try wearing headphones or earbuds, even if they're not plugged in.<BR/><BR/><BR/>gG-Favhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14474787912488750916noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27054305.post-65819374258169584082008-08-03T17:36:00.000-04:002008-08-03T17:36:00.000-04:00RG: well, if things don't work out with your boy C...RG: well, if things don't work out with your boy Carew, come on out here and I'll hook you up.Flaviahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17832765671541392835noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27054305.post-70536885171225109952008-08-03T17:12:00.000-04:002008-08-03T17:12:00.000-04:00Dr. C., you've reminded me of this awesome essay (...Dr. C., you've reminded me of <A HREF="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/04/15/men-explain-things-to-me_n_96843.html" REL="nofollow">this awesome essay</A> (that HuffPo link contains just its fabulous opening anecdote, but the rest of the essay can be accessed from there). It discusses exactly the gender dynamic you're talking about.<BR/><BR/>And alas, it's true that on the few occasions I have <I>tried</I> to pull intellectual rank to scare someone off, it's never worked. The bozo who's cluelessly self-important enough to try to chat one up in some inappropriate setting is not likely to find one's job, subject of specialization, etc., intimidating. Well do I remember the time that (in response to the obvious question) I announced that the last book I'd read was <I>War and Peace</I>. It was totally if bizarrely true, but I felt no little satisfaction in the belief that the dude would surely leave me alone after that. <BR/><BR/>But no. He got all excited because hey! I liked to read? <I>He</I> liked to read! Like, Dean Koontz! I musta read some Dean Koontz, right? (Aww, why not??)Flaviahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17832765671541392835noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27054305.post-36969837577508080982008-08-03T16:18:00.000-04:002008-08-03T16:18:00.000-04:00Flavia- He was almost certainly hitting on you, ho...Flavia- He was almost certainly hitting on you, however ineptly. He did not choose among "all of the lone people bent over their work" at random. And if you were free for Wednesday nights at Pub XYZ, he was *surely* available to accompany you. <BR/><BR/>If it didn't feel the way it does when a creep hits on you in a pub, it's because he wasn't looking for a hookup per se, and so his would-be seductive technique (and the goals of his would-be seduction) are somewhat different. <BR/><BR/>He wanted to wow you with his erudition, which he firmly believes will eventually attract beautiful younger women to him, and he wanted you to admire him and validate his self-image *at least* as much as he wanted your romantic attentions. One of the reasons his approach was so inept is that he was counting on you to fulfill his fantasy script, be suitably amazed by his great-man genius, and flock to him as a disciple. If he ever does manage to pick someone up in a cafe, the poor woman won't get off with anything as easy as a one-night stand, alas.<BR/><BR/>Medieval Woman- There are equal-opportunity nutters who will talk to anyone they find handy, and I've been monologued at by some. Also, some people, men and women alike, hear "Shakespeare" and start trying to establish their own personal Shakespeare credentials out of competition or insecurity or both.<BR/><BR/>But mostly, no, this is something men do to women. If you reverse the genders in the coffee-house scenario, you reverse the scenario. Then the standard cultural script is for the woman to purport great interest in what the man is writing or reading. That's been my experience.<BR/><BR/>I don't think it's that the pest categorized Flavia's activities as women's work; I think it's that he solipsized Flavia completely from jump. He had a script in which he would be the authority and F. would be his dewy-eyed admirer and that script didn't deviate when he found that she was a professor rather than a student. He learns she's a university professor and begins to lecture her! It's can't more awfully and hilariously plain than that!Doctor Clevelandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07326408523926507003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27054305.post-68512348158879820412008-08-03T00:56:00.000-04:002008-08-03T00:56:00.000-04:00A 50-ish dude nattering on about early Christianit...A 50-ish dude nattering on about early Christianity? Now THAT'S the kind of blind date I'm looking for!Renaissance Girlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06243095907452011303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27054305.post-33561802507462193622008-08-02T15:13:00.000-04:002008-08-02T15:13:00.000-04:00JustMe -- Yeah, exactly. And I am SO sick of bein...JustMe -- Yeah, exactly. And I am SO sick of being told that I'm somehow "lucky" to have a physical trait that has made it harder to find a job and harder to earn respect from both colleagues and students. (Questions that I have actually been asked in interviews: "How old are you? You look about twelve." "You're female; you're not very big; do you think you'll be able to handle a football player who has a grade dispute?") AAARRGHHH.Fretful Porpentinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11165078003123517013noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27054305.post-74001563370086311142008-08-02T12:56:00.000-04:002008-08-02T12:56:00.000-04:00I had a comforting vision the other day of a world...I had a comforting vision the other day of a world in which people are not allowed to bother people when they don't want to be bothered, can easily read social signals indicating such, and most of all, are not allowed to comment on any aspect of another person's appearance or mannerisms. Imagine this, a world free of comments from either men or women about other people's bodies or clothing choices. Realistically, such a prohibition would have a down side too, I suppose. But what freedom to imagine at least for a moment a world where no one talks about weight or diets or bootys or backsides or breasts, or penis length or clothing bargains or age or personal habits. Free to be you and me, indeed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27054305.post-42745091490043969702008-08-02T12:53:00.000-04:002008-08-02T12:53:00.000-04:00i hate the whole you look young thing. it is usual...i hate the whole you look young thing. it is usually a dig, and not a compliment.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27054305.post-90263015345820889802008-08-02T10:47:00.000-04:002008-08-02T10:47:00.000-04:00But also, it's annoying when you're a young woman ...<I>But also, it's annoying when you're a young woman of "a certain age" and you say you're a professor and not a student and they look at you like you just sprouted a second head.</I><BR/><BR/>Oh God, yes, I <I>hate</I> that. Surely some of these people should have figured out by now that it's not all <I>that</I> uncommon for people to look younger than they are?Fretful Porpentinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11165078003123517013noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27054305.post-60445826551288741462008-08-02T10:25:00.000-04:002008-08-02T10:25:00.000-04:00Huzzah for this! I wonder if it's because wom...Huzzah for this! I wonder if it's because women's work has so traditionally been a) unseen and in the background, and b) unacknowledged as "work" even when it is seen? I wonder if any of the male readers of F&F could comment on this? <BR/><BR/>But also, it's annoying when you're a young woman of "a certain age" and you say you're a professor and not a student and they look at you like you just sprouted a second head.<BR/><BR/>I think you handled the situation with the perfect mixture of polite, minimally-sustained interest and a firm (if unspoken) assertion that you needed to get back to work. Not that he read those signals, mind you, if he kept coming back for more!medieval womanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00457130525946143002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27054305.post-18522816116092570842008-08-02T00:45:00.000-04:002008-08-02T00:45:00.000-04:00Oh I hear you on this one ---- and the whole "you'...Oh I hear you on this one ---- and the whole "you're not a good girl unless you're smiling awkwardly and politely to inappropriate treatment" is a big one I can't train myself out of either.Sisyphushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09880634753539329199noreply@blogger.com